I do not have a firm position, as it relates to eschatology (i.e. End Times). Do you believe our current circumstances, whatever those circumstances might be to you, relate directly to a Christian understanding of the End Times?

Explain what position you take generally and how they relate.

I'm curious because I'm in the midst of many discussions regarding such things with other believers both outside of and within my circle of family & friends.

Thanks guys...

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

First, I don't think anyone of us knows when the end times will come. However, I believe the apostles taught and modeled (in their writings) immanency; the view that the events of the end times could begin to unfold at anytime and that we should be watchful always so that the day of the Lord will not overtake us like a thief in the night.

This being said, I think there is also a pattern of events that we should expect throughout this age. According to Jesus, this will be an age of wars, rumors of wars and disasters of all kinds. It will also be an age of false prophets and antichrists with lower cast "a"s. So there is a sense in which little tribulations and apocalypses have occurred throughout the age we are living in. We as Christians should expect this sort of thing, and Jesus warned us not to be deceived by this pattern because these things are not the end but merely the beginning of birth-pains. But the reoccurring pattern of the age has led to much speculation and many a lower case antichrist has been misidentified as THE ANTICHRIST.

Now have said all of that, I believe that in our times we are witnessing the stage being set either for another of those little apocalypses or THE apocalypse. I tend to think the latter because there are certain things coming together this time that have not been there before. Most notably in the Middle East and in a reborn nation of Israel.

So whether Christ returns or not, I have a conviction that Western Civilization as we have known it will not be here 100 years from now. It agree with historian John Lukacs that it would have fallen in 1940 were it not for one stubborn old Englishman. I do not see his equal today.

Gom,
I read over TWB's response and I am in complete agreement with him (probably because everything I have learned about the end times I learned from him).

My reading of scripture leads me to believe we need a rebuilt Jewish temple before things get really bad (Daniel 9:27).

TWB has written a great Bible study on the "End Times" and I would recommend it to you. I don't know if he has it in a digital format.

Arlo,


Is it your understanding that genuine followers of Jesus Christ will still be here by the time a rebuilt Jewish temple is extant?

I'm of the mind that really bad times could come to pass as a lead up to concluding events, yet still only be the beginning of what is to come. Your thoughts?

I invite The White Bishop to comment as well.

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

I believe the temple could be built long before the rapture, but I don't believe it will be built long before the rapture. Does that make sense? Will it be in existence at the rapture? I believe so.

Now, for the big question. When will the rapture happen, pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation? I have heard excellent arguements for both positions and I have to say I don't really know. TWB is mid-trib and he has a very convincing arguement. If he is right, Christians can expect to go through the first three and one half years of the Tribulation, but not the last three and one half years or, the Great Tribulation.

I hope TWB will post, he has a much better mind for these things than I.

Probably no one is interested in my view; but I will force it on you anyway. Present day Israel had nothing to do with anything. After Jesus there was no Jew or Greek as they were all one in Christ. The new Jew is the Christian; and the New Israel is the Christians as a group. If that does not give you enough heart burn, we don't need to be concerned about any tribulations. That is a waste of time. The only tribulation we should worry about is the one we go through individually when we separate ourselves from God by our own sin; and when we have come through that tribulation, we have come through the greatest tribulation there can be for us; and we need fear no other tribulations because God will protect us. The only end of time that matters to us, is when we physically die, because with our physical death, our opportunity to turn from wickedness to righteousness ends; and we are then faced with our unchangeable destiny of death or non existence. Before we die physcially, we have the ability to change from being unloving people to people who love others, and thereby love God, and then we are reborn spiritually by God, and then our destiny of existence continues with God after our physical existence ends. If you are interested in a commentary I have prepared that explains Revelation without any dispensational theology, you can email me. It is about a thousand pages of the kind of stuff I just outlined above.

Elman,
Thanks for sharing. I do value your input. We do disagree on some issues, but I believe you are trusting in Jesus for your salvation and on that basis, you are my brother in Christ.

Let me recommend a video series of sermons on Revelation by The White Bishop. Go to http://www.colbyberean.com and look under the sermon archives for Mark Carlton. Mark began this series of messages at the end of June, and I if know Mark, it will take him one and one half to two years to get through Revelation. I went through these sermons with Mark several years ago and I can highly recommend them. I suggest you have your Bible open during the message.

God bless.