If you are not persuaded that the universe exists then I cannot persuade you of anything. Do I have to persuade you that the universe exists?

Zarniwoop pulled some notes out of a pocket.

"Now," he said, "you do rule the Universe, do you?"

"How can I tell?" said the man.

Zarniwoop ticked off a note on the paper.

"How long have you been doing this?"

"Ah," said the man, "this is a question about the past is it?"

Zarniwoop looked at him in puzzlement. This wasn't exactly what he had been expecting.

"Yes," he said.

"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"

Zarniwoop stared at him. The steam began to rise from his sodden clothes.

"So you answer all questions like this?" he said.

The man answered quickly.

"I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things. More I cannot say."

Zaphod laughed happily.

"I'll drink to that," he said and pulled out the bottle of Janx spirit. He leaped up and handed the bottle to the ruler of the Universe, who took it with pleasure.

"Good on you, great ruler," he said, "tell it like it is."

"No, listen to me," said Zarniwoop, "people come to you do they? In ships ..."

"I think so," said the man. He handed the bottle to Trillian.

"And they ask you," said Zarniwoop, "to take decisions for them? About people's lives, about worlds, about economies, about wars, about everything going on out there in the Universe?"

"Out there?" said the man, "out where?"

"Out there!" said Zarniwoop pointing at the door.

"How can you tell there's anything out there," said the man politely, "the door's closed."

The rain continued to pound the roof. Inside the shack it was warm.

"But you know there's a whole Universe out there!" cried Zarniwoop. "You can't dodge your responsibilities by saying they don't exist!"

The ruler of the Universe thought for a long while whilst Zarniwoop quivered with anger.

"You're very sure of your facts," he said at last, "I couldn't trust the thinking of a man who takes the Universe — if there is one — for granted."

Zarniwoop still quivered, but was silent.

"I only decide about my Universe," continued the man quietly. "My Universe is my eyes and my ears. Anything else is hearsay."

"But don't you believe in anything?"

The man shrugged and picked up his cat.

"I don't understand what you mean," he said.

"You don't understand that what you decide in this shack of yours affects the lives and fates of millions of people? This is all monstrously wrong!"

"I don't know. I've never met all these people you speak of. And neither, I suspect, have you. They only exist in words we hear. It is folly to say you know what is happening to other people. Only they know, if they exist. They have their own Universes of their own eyes and ears."

Trillian said:

"I think I'm just popping outside for a moment."

She left and walked into the rain.

"Do you believe other people exist?" insisted Zarniwoop.

"I have no opinion. How can I say?"

"I'd better see what's up with Trillian," said Zaphod and slipped out.

Outside, he said to her:

"I think the Universe is in pretty good hands, yeah?"

"Very good," said Trillian. They walked off into the rain.

Inside, Zarniwoop continued.

"But don't you understand that people live or die on your word?"

The ruler of the Universe waited for as long as he could. When he heard the faint sound of the ship's engines starting he spoke to cover it.

"It's nothing to do with me," he said, "I am not involved with people. The Lord knows I am not a cruel man."

"Ah!" barked Zarniwoop, "you say 'The Lord'. You believe in something!"

"My cat," said the man benignly, picking it up and stroking it, "I call him The Lord. I am kind to him."

"Alright," said Zarniwoop, pressing home his point, "How do you know he exists? How do you know he knows you to be kind, or enjoys what he thinks of as your kindness?"

"I don't," said the man with a smile, "I have no idea. It merely pleases me to behave in a certain way to what appears to be a cat. Do you behave any differently? Please, I think I am tired."

Zarniwoop heaved a thoroughly dissatisfied sigh and looked about.

"Where are the other two?" he said suddenly.

"What other two?" said the ruler of the Universe, settling back into his chair and refilling his whisky glass.

"Beeblebrox and the girl! The two who were here!"

"I remember no one. The past is a fiction to account for ..."

"Stuff it," snapped Zarniwoop and ran out into the rain. There was no ship. The rain continued to churn the mud. There was no sign to show where the ship had been. He hollered into the rain. He turned and ran back to the shack and found it locked.

The ruler of the Universe dozed lightly in his chair. After a while he played with the pencil and the paper again and was delighted when he discovered how to make a mark with the one on the other. Various noises continued outside, but he didn't know whether they were real or not. He then talked to his table for a week to see how it would react.

Do you agree with these statements?

Assuming there is such a thing as absolute truth, persuasion is required to bring someone around to your point of view.

Assuming truth (or our perception of it) is relative, persuasion is required to bring someone around to your point of view.

Suppose you believe something to be true. Suppose I do not share your belief. Suppose you want me to understand the truth as you do. Is this a scenario that seems plausible?

"Understanding the truth itself is the goal." Do you mean that is your goal for me? Is your goal for me to understand the truth? What is your strategy for achieving this goal?

My strategy is simply to engage the ideas presented and to the extent they are false, provide reasonable counter-arguments and/or refutations, as well any evidence that may be available to me in this somewhat off-the-cuff forum format.

1) We have disagreements. True or false?

2) When we explore our disagreements we sometimes observe in our interlocutors an inability (or unwillingness) to recognize the truth of an assertion or a premise that we believe (or know to be) the truth. True or false?

3) Persuasion is necessary if we are to have meaningful debate. True or false?

...

What is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

Would you call this strategy "persuasion"?

And what of my earlier questions?

1) We have disagreements. True or false?

2) When we explore our disagreements we sometimes observe in our interlocutors an inability (or unwillingness) to recognize the truth of an assertion or a premise that we believe (or know to be) the truth. True or false?

3) Persuasion is necessary if we are to have meaningful debate. True or false?

What is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

Does that make sense?

But when evidence and/or argumentation is marshalled, it often has ZERO impact.

Do you generally attribute this result to intransigence on the part of your interlocutor(s)?

Does it seem to you that each of us (I refer to me and you specifically) often sees the other as intransigent?

It depends on the person and the circumstances. You can often get a sense of whether someone is really interested in understanding something or having a genuine conversation or whether they are simply throwing up a wall of objections designed to help nothing be accomplished. But people turn on and off in that respect. For example, I've seen you do both things, but it depends somewhat on the topic, your mood, the various approaches taken to the topic, etc... And people are just different. I've known people in my past who were always inquisitive, but I never thought that automatically meant that they would eventually see things my way. The will of a person is the central issue, and no amount of talking on my part will change the will of a human being who is bent on maintaining a certain position. But since you can't tell who is that way and who is open to changing their mind, as both can appear highly or totally convinced of their point of view, you just have to dive in and see what happens. At the very least, you might gain additional understanding, and that's something positive to take away from any conversation.


Well, given that I'm told this it seems like about 1/5th of the time you choose to respond to me, I'd have to say yes. However, I will say that I have seen you show openess from time to time...a willingness to discuss and ask questions without the more obvious hand-waiving objections, seemingly willful misinterpretations, etc... While I am a realist (no silly illusions of success), I'm still hopeful that something positive can come out of each encounter. That is, until that hope is forcibly ripped from me. Hehehe...

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

...I would say that being persuasive is one thing. Persuading another is quite another matter.