http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-did-you-leave-fold.html



For me it was all the contradictions in the bible. What about the other converts here?

From a Christian perspective, if someone claims to have "left the fold" they were never actually in the fold to begin with. Many people profess and pretend to be believers/followers of Jesus Christ, but eventually the wheat and the chaff are separated. The visible and the invisible Church will not always be together. They will be sifted in time. You can tell by the number of believers who've looked at many of the very same issues and found satisfying answers. Ultimately, it's about the will. If you're looking for reasons to reject God, you'll always find them, even if they are unjustified or of your own making.

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

Does that mean it's possible you may not be 'in the fold' because at some point in time in the future you might become an athiest?

I remain open to changing my mind, though given the extent to which I've been convinced of the truth of Christianity, it appears unlikely. If Christianity is true, and I'm truly in the fold; then no, it's not possible for me to become an atheist.

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

To paraphrase back, if you are looking for reasons to believe in God, you'll always find them, even if they are unjustified or of your own making.

Many atheists who were believers say that they couldn't justify their belief any more in the face of reality. The reasons to believe vanished one by one till they were all gone. I assume this is why some believers don't want their children exposed to 'dangerous' ideas like evolution.

Actually, in my view, there is more reason to believe in God today than ever before in history, apart from the time when Christ was walking the earth Himself that is. Most of the arguments against Christianity, particularly those by the likes of Bart Ehrman, Richard Dawkins, etc... have been successfully dealt with. It's just that the atheists will probably never be aware of such things since they'll likely never pick up the books & read 'em. Oh well...

I hope that changes in the days ahead, and perhaps our disasterous future will bring about just such a chance for real change. We'll just have to see.

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

You keep saying this but won't tell me what the evidence is so I must assume you are bluffing.

Can you tell me the title/author of one book you believe deals with the Ehrman or Dawkins and if my library has it I will read it?

There was a definite moment a few years ago when I realized there are no miracles or supernatural events happening. Prayer can't make anything happen by magic. That means the Bible is wrong. To me, you can't ever deny the NT history absolutely as to what happened back then, but you can look at what's happening today and test it that way. The NT makes promises about prayer and faith. But the promises are false. That's the main reason for me.

That's my point. You are a believer, and thus find a way to justify your belief.



The bible says that anything asked in Jesus name will be granted. This does not happen, as we can tell from the deaths of children whose lives are fervently prayed for by their parents and those who love them. Do you have the counter argument for that?



Disaster and hardship do tend to drive people to religion. Any hope sounds good at times like that, even a false one. Preachers have been taking advantage of that for millenia.

Personally, I think we should work for a better happier future.

sampa wrote:


Yes. And there's no reason why believers and atheists can't work together toward this goal. I see dark pessimism as truly unproductive, perhaps self-defeating and self-perpetuating.

I've always seen Christianity as a hopeful faith; I find Gom's pessimism surprising. But there are many varieties of Christianity, of course, for the only requirement is belief in Jesus as one with God. (I left the fold because I couldn't/didn't believe this, in spite of my admiration for the teachings of Jesus--and my agreement with most if not all of them.)

This is fallacious. You are likely unaware of the justifications for my beliefs, so you cannot with any actual knowledge say, with any credibility that I've simply found a way. Of course, I would put it quite differently. I would say that my beliefs are well justified both by evidence and reason. You can re-write that or gainsay it all you like, but doing so won't change the objective nature of the claim itself.

And you think that your understanding of that verse/passage is actually what is meant and how Christians should understand the verse/passage huh? Hehehe...so God has essentially asserted Himself as our personal Genie huh? Is that consistent with the rest of the Bible or the passage itself? Hmmmmm......well, I'm not going to go too deep into the weeds on that one, but I will say that your misunderstandings of the Bible don't count as actual arguments. In order to have a real argument, you're going to have to come up with something that isn't a straw man.

Let me quote the fuller declaration, rather than simply its re-statement in verse 14. John 14:13 - Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

An Aside
What I will say on the subject is the following: The declaration is being made to believers and for the declaration to occur it must, within the sovereignty of God, serve the end goal, to “glorify the Father in the Son.”

Whatsoever – The scope of prayer.
Ask – The condition of prayer.
In my name – The ground of prayer. This involves at least two things: praying in the authority that Christ gives (Matthew 28:19, Acts 3:6) and praying in union with Him, so that one does not pray outside His will.
That will I do – The certainty of prayer.
That the Father may be glorified in the Son – The purpose of prayer.
It is in this context that the declaration should be understood. And of course, it is subject to God’s sovereignty, which is precisely why Christ’s prayer was not answered, when he asked that the cup of crucifixion be taken away from Him and why Paul’s prayer for the removal of the thorn in his side was not immediately removed either.

That’s all I’m prepared to say in an off-the-cuff fashion, but by all means feel free to take advantage of the strategy I gave above to get most, if not all, of your questions answered. There is of course, far more things that I could recommend as a help, but for starters, that’s what I’ve got for you.


Personally, I hate to see people driven to mere religion (i.e. false hope). I’d much rather see them driven to genuine faith in Jesus Christ, true and eternal hope. I agree with you about working for a better and happier future. That’s precisely why I try to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and let people know that God has made a way of escape for them. They simply need to recognize their sinful state (i.e. inability to merit or earn God’s eternal presence and satisfaction), repent of their sinful ways (i.e. make a genuine turn in their heart/will toward God and their former life), and begin to place their trust in and follow Jesus Christ (i.e. get into a solid church where you can sit under sound & accurate teaching and pattern your life after that of Christ, obeying the commands of God).

The problem is that mankind will not work for a better & happier future. They will, in their arrogance and ignorance, think they are working for such a thing, but in reality, they’ll simply be sowing the seeds of their eventual destruction. We’re moving closer all the time. It’s quite an exciting time to be alive, but it’s also very sad in another sense. There are times when I wish I weren’t alive to see what I’m seeing, and there are other times when I just wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. In any case, I just hope I can be used to have a positive impact on others through the Gospel, the showing of mercy, and whatever else I’m made capable of in the days ahead.

In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

There are probably a few areas where this is true, but more basically the atheist and the Christian will always be at odds because one is working for God and the other is working against God.

I agree, dark pessimism is unproductive, self-defeating, and self-perpetuating. On the other hand, a realistic assessment that happens to be negative isn't any of those things. If you could see a severe storm approaching, would you really label the person who warned of its impending arrival a pessimist, unproductive, and self-defeating? The simple truth is that you are looking at reality through an increasingly opaque veil. You don't see what is about to happen to this nation and the world, and most everyone has absolutely no concept of that which lies beyond the immediate future of 10 to 20 years. I myself can only see the broad outlines, but the details will fill in on their own, and the time that will take is unknown. I'm kind of hoping that I'm dead & gone by the time things really sink in a major fashion, but I suspect I'll be here through some very rough and difficult times.


That's good because Christianity is a supremely hopeful faith...for Christians. And make no mistake, I'm very hopeful for myself and other believers. It's an exciting time to be alive, and I relish the prospect of being given the opportunity to be used by God to make a positive difference in the lives of people, both spiritually and materially. That doesn't mean that the situation for non-believers is positive or hopeful, and that's the part that I find so difficult. Though we often disagree, it's painful to know what must be faced by the mass of humanity in the future, completely apart from God. So don't be surprised by my realism. The Bible is very clear about where hope lies and where it does not. Mark 8:36 - 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? If I may be so bold as to put it slightly differently...
[For what does it profit mankind to gain the whole world (work for a better & happier future), and forfeit their own souls?] There's nothing to be happy or hopeful about in that.




In His Grip,

christian_concern@yahoo.com

Of course you think your beliefs are well justified. Otherwise you wouldn't have them.



Actually, Jesus did essentially say that God would be a Christian's personal genie. Christians can also move mountains. It's not true, so the bible is a lie. See how easy it is if you don't try to rationalize away the contradictions and just take the bible as is is written?

These contradictions are why I'm not a Christian anymore.

The old testament is full of genie style actions. Moses was always rubbing the God lamp to get things done. Come to think of it, djinn come from the same place as Jehovah. Interesting coincidence.

To answer your word by word analysis:

Whatsoever – The scope of prayer.
-Agreed. There is no limit on what can be prayed for. Child's life, hockey tickets, death of foreign leaders.

Ask – The condition of prayer.
-Don't get your point. The passage was about prayer.

In my name – The ground of prayer. This involves at least two things: praying in the authority that Christ gives (Matthew 28:19, Acts 3:6) and praying in union with Him, so that one does not pray outside His will.
-Don't get it. All prayers end 'in Jesus name'. For the 'outside His will' part, are you saying that prayers are only answered if they were going to happen anyway?

That will I do – The certainty of prayer.
-This is the genie part.

That the Father may be glorified in the Son – The purpose of prayer.
-This is to show that the Father is real and can be shown to be so because he answers prayers. Healing the sick was one of the ways that Jesus glorified God during his life, so it clearly fits this.

If you find yourself having to make a line in the bible mean essentially it's opposite to comport with reality, then perhaps you have a misplaced belief.

Virtually all Christian churches subscribe to and promote the "genie" interpretation of prayer. They wouldn't say that's the only purpose of prayer but it is one. Show me one Christian who would say it's wrong to pray for the life or health of another.

I agree that is the usual aim of prayer. But I do know a small handful of Christians who pray only to find out what God wants them to do. I have tried that myself but just like the other type of prayer I got no response. I guess chaff I was and chaff I remain...